The Working Experience Podcast: Be Consistent withTime, Format and Content
“Getting an audience is hard. Sustaining an audience is hard. It demands a consistency of thought, of purpose, and of action over a long period of time.”
Bruce Springsteen
Matty Kerr is co-creator and cohost with John Brancaccio of The Working Experience Podcast which can be found on iTunes, Spotify and wherever else you listen to your favorite podcasts. Find us also on Twitter, Linked In, Instagram and Facebook.
What is the correct length of time for a successful podcast? Fifteen minutes? An hour? Three hours? What is too long? What is too short?
Should a podcast be scripted or unscripted? How structured is too structured?
Podcasts vary widely in length. The episodes for The True Crime Garage are generally about an hour; the longest episode is I saw is an hour and 26 minutes. Crime Junkie, which I listen to every week, is usually 50–60 minutes. Sleep With Me, hosted by Drew Ackerman, falls into the hour to an hour and 15 minute range.
Some are much shorter. Most of the Baseball History podcast episodes are under 20 minutes. I thought it would be much longer since the games are so damn long. There are guided meditation podcasts with 15 minutes episodes. I suppose the idea is that the listener should be at peace by then.
Then there are podcasts that are much longer. Most of Tim Ferriss’ podcasts are two hours with longer episodes stretching to two and a half. The Joe Rogan Experience (JRE) regularly clocks in at over three hours.
Every podcast is different. The host(s) obviously play a significant role in the popularity of the podcast. Because of who Joe Rogan is, his profile with Fear factor and the UFC and such, people would be more prone to listen to his show. He is alo a skilled interviewer and the fact that he gets famous guests to be on his show makes people much more willing to tune in for three hours. Mike Tyson is a fascinating person; he has the most amazing stories; people will hang in for three hours to listen to him tell stories to Joe Rogan.
People will listen to Joe Rogan smoke weed and chat with Elon Musk for three hours.
When John and I started The Working Experience podcast we didn’t know how long the episodes should be. We did realize that people were probably not going to listen to us babble for three hours or even two hours. We have had some great guests but I do not have the skill to keep an interview going for three hours. So we needed to find the time frame that fit us best. And, like any creative endeavor, that had to come with trial and error.
After doing 30–40 episodes we took a look at the number of downloads per episode and concluded that 35–40 minutes is our sweet spot. If we ramble on too long we tend to lose listeners. When episodes are shorter, 15–20 minutes, it seems like people don’t want to bother because they want something weightier they can dig into. (That is assuming they don’t find us inane and boring, which some people do.) Sometimes an episode might be closer to 25 minutes or go over 45 but we try to stick to the time frame.
There are a lot of variables to consider when trying to grow an audience.
These numbers might depend on where and when people are listening to our podcast, if they are at work or at home or in the car or on a train. It might depend on the length of the commute or some other factor. It might also depend on the time of year, the holidays, summer vacation etc. When people are at the beach they are less likely to listen to podcasts (think summer reruns).
What about the format?
Some podcasts, because of the nature of the subject matter, are scripted. Crime Junkie covers old cases about people being murdered, people disappearing, serial killers and other crimes of that nature. They do a ton of research and provide a lot of information surrounding the case, including background on the people involved, interviews with law enforcement, interviews with friends and family of the victim, recordings of 911 calls, videos etc. All of this information needs to be organized into a script so the listener can follow the chronology of events, keep the facts straight, be able to identify the people involved and understand all of the issues related to the case.
If the hosts did not follow a script it would be nearly impossible to understand the cases.
A pitfall of following a script can be that the podcast is boring. I have heard podcasts on which the host is literally reading word for word from a script in a monotonous tone. That does not make for an entertaining hour.
The people who do it right, like the hosts of Crime Junkie, have developed a dynamic in which they follow the script but are also able to engage in spontaneous commentary which makes it sound like more of a friendly conversation which is more interesting for the audience.
The Joe Rogan Experience is completely unscripted. It is a free flowing conversation with whomeever he has on as a guest for that episode. Of course, if you have the astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson or Metallica’s James Hetfield or Steve-O from Jackass, it is much easier to have an interesting conversation. Plus, being in show business himself, Joe Rogan has a lot of interesting stories himself and relate much better to a celebrity than the average person. Still, it is quite a skill to keep it up for three houirs and make it as interesting as he does. With no script it can be very easy for a conversation to become an awkward mess.
(Note: podcasts are edited which helps with those awkward moments.)
John and I try to fall somewhere between scripted and unscripted. We will do research individually about issues related to work and send each other articles about the topics. We decide what we want to discuss in the coming weeks and write up talking points about topics like Jobs that are Growing in 2020 or Top Five Reasons People Get Fired. John might have read something interesting about people who resell items on Amazon and he will write up bullets points for us to cover.
The main idea is to stay on topic.
Some pitfalls we have recognized and try to avoid are:
— John and I have known each other for over 25 years so we have to be careful to avoid inside jokes and stories that the audience won’t get or care about.
— We have had the habit of bantering for too long before we got into the topic, which can be really obnoxious, so now we make a conscious effort to dive right in.
— We had a tendency to repeat the same ideas over and over. At one point we seemed to constantly go back to the theme of the American Dream being fake and a trap (big house, fancy car, lots of money, trying to fill a void, people are miserable etc). We had made the point, move on.
— Avoid being too philosophical and preachy. Anyone can have opinions and many are not shy about telling other people how to live their lives. It is so easy to sound like a sanctimonious jackass. We want to do research, have facts, provide helpful information, food for thought. Otherwise, what is the point?
— We like to leave room for tangents and jokes but we are probably not as funny as we think we are.
Lastly, we had to decide how often to post episodes. Some podcasts post once a week, some every day. We decided on twice a week, every Tuesday and Thursday. For while we were doing a short, 20 minute Friday episode (TGIF) but no one listened to it so we cut that. We were doing a 20 minute Monday episode (TGIM) which has some decent numbers but we have suspended it for now due to the Coronavirus. We may start it up again when things get back to normal but we’ll see how many people are listening to it.
Whatever an aspiring podcaster might decide about format or subject matter or frequency of posting, it has to be CONSISTENT.
The number one reason that podcasts FAIL is that they are NOT CONSISTENT.
People are creatures of habit; we crave consistency. McDonald’s is the most popular restaurant in the history of the world because people know that if they order a Big Mac in Boston or New York or Los Angeles or Tokyo or Paris or Dubai they are going to get the exact same sandwich everywhere, every time.
A podcast needs a consistent format and consistent content to become a known brand. Businesses that are known for doing something really well on a consistent basis are successful.
If your podcast bills itself as being about baseball or politics ot historical fiction is has to be on topic for every episode. People are tuning in because they are interested in that topic. If you are knowledgeable about that topic and interesting, people will want to listen to you. If you start rambling about your favorite Netflix show they will tune out.
If your podcast puts up one episode a week it had better be on the same day of the week and it has to go up every week. If you are skipping weeks the audience will move on.
Most people give up when they are not successful right away. You need time to find your voice. Do your research, be prepared and remember that you may not be as entertaining as you think you are; most of us are not.
